Top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery technology « Hydrogen Discoveries company blog

Top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery technology « Hydrogen Discoveries company blog:

Top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives criticizing plug-in battery technology

(Note: To learn more about hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and their potential to solve the oil crisis, please read the series of articles titled “Twelve Hydrogen Facts” which is part of the Hydrogen Manhattan Project.)

Here are the top 25 quotes from Toyota and Honda executives (who are the REAL experts) criticizing plug-in battery technology:

1. Los Angeles Times article - June 15, 2008

“‘Petroleum is not a long-term solution for cars, and battery cars have real limitations,’ said Bill Reinert, national manager for advanced technologies at Toyota Motor Corp. ‘Hydrogen technology is getting much better.’”

2. Greentechmedia article - August 28, 2008

“A national manager at Toyota Motor Corp. believes some of the most eagerly anticipated electrified cars could end up being a flop, EV World Insider reported Thursday.

According to the EV World newsletter, which was dated Aug. 18 but released via email Thursday, Bill Reinert, national manager of Toyota’s advanced technology group, said that some Toyota employees have started a ‘death watch’ on the Tesla Model S (previously codenamed Whitestar), Fisker Karma and the Chevrolet Volt.

In ‘off-the-cuff’ comments at a conference in Oregon earlier this month, Reinert told EV World publisher Bill Moore that he and his colleagues don’t think any of the three - particularly the Tesla - will reach significant volumes because the batteries are just too costly.”

3. PowerPulse.net article - October 31, 2007

“Takeo Fukui, CEO of Honda Motor Co., recently told reporters that his company would not be pursuing the plug-in hybrid gasoline-electric vehicle market…”

4. Wall Street Journal article - June 16, 2008

“Wall Street Journal: Other auto makers, including Nissan Motor Co. and General Motors Corp., are planning to launch electric vehicles, but Honda isn’t offering this alternative. Why not?

Takeo Fukui: We feel the practical feasibility of the electric vehicle is very limited. The biggest issue is driving distance. The other issue is the recharging time. The FCX Clarity can be recharged in one minute. With the electric vehicle, it can take several hours. However, this is not to deny the possibility of battery electric vehicles. It’s very useful for vehicles with restricted applications, like golf carts.”

5. AutoblogGreen post - November 14, 2006

Steve Ellis, Manager of Fuel Cell Marketing for Honda, said that:

“There is a group of ‘EV Zealots’ who are constantly criticizing all hydrogen related work based on flawed arguments and without examining all the costs of a plug-in system.”

6. Earth2Tech article - June 15, 2008

“Standing next to a converted plug-in Prius (Reinert is in the brown jacket), rough language and impassioned rhetoric was exchanged, with neither side conceding anything. Much of the argument boiled down to the perceived demand for fully electric vehicles: Reinert and Toyota contend that there isn’t a viable market; Plug In America says quite the opposite.”

7. Cnet.com article - October 17, 2008

Masaaki Kato, president of Honda R&D, said:

“Our stance is that the use of electric vehicles is limited. To get the performance of an Accord, in terms of driving range, from today’s battery-only drivetrain, we would need to carry 2 tons of batteries. That’s no good.”

8. Toyota website - As of November 7, 2008

“Toyota Motor Corporation discontinued production of the RAV4 Electric Vehicle worldwide in the spring of 2003. Therefore, Toyota will no longer take orders for the RAV4 EV.

Toyota remains committed to developing an ‘Eco Vehicle,’ one that will have a minimal impact on the environment. Toyota believes that in order to have a positive environmental impact, a large number of consumers must embrace the technology. In order for this to happen, the vehicle must meet the lifestyle needs of, and be affordable to, the mass market. Although a significant marketing effort was undertaken for the RAV4-EV, we only sold about 300 vehicles a year.

In addition to overall customer acceptance, technical issues tied to electric vehicles remain a major hurdle. Industry practice regards batteries to be at the end of their useful life when capacity decreases to 80% of original capacity. A battery’s capacity is the amount of charge that it holds, and is commonly measured by the range of the vehicle. It is cost-prohibitive to replace an EV battery. The cost to replace the battery is more than the value of the vehicle.“

9. Edmunds.com article - September 15, 2008

“Batteries just aren’t advanced enough to make rechargeable gasoline-electric vehicles sensible replacements for gasoline-only cars, Honda research chief Masaaki Kato said in a recent interview with the business news service.

‘For battery-powered vehicles to become more widespread, more popular in the market, we feel battery technology needs to advance further,’ Kato said. ‘We just don’t see it providing the type of driving performance you get with a gasoline-powered vehicle.’”

10. Edmunds.com article - September 15, 2008

“Kato told Bloomberg that Honda engineers don’t believe lithium-ion batteries will satisfy most consumers because of their high cost and limited range compared to gasoline engines.

In Japan, he said, battery developers are still trying to meet a government goal of boosting energy storage capacity by seven times while slashing battery costs to just 2.5 percent of current costs.

‘That gives you a pretty clear example of what type of gap we’re facing relative to a gasoline vehicle,’ Kato said. ‘At this point, I’d say it’s impossible to imagine a date at which such a breakthrough could occur.’

He said Honda believes it will be easier, less costly and quicker to perfect the fuel-cell electric vehicle, such as the FCX Clarity that it is leasing in small numbers to select consumers in Southern California and Japan.”

11. AutoWeek article - June 12, 2008

“A top Toyota technology expert today urged people to temper expectations for what plug-in hybrid vehicles can accomplish.

Bill Reinert said that the demands of real-world driving, such as rapid acceleration on freeway entrances, could dramatically reduce the all-electric range of plug-ins, whenever they hit the market.”

12. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008

“At a sustainability seminar held here recently amidst all the hybrid hype, Toyota officials offered predictions that suggest the utopian picture of our plug-in future may be premature. ‘Plug-in hybrids will go to market, but we should have reasonable expectations,’ said Bill Reinert, national manager of Toyota’s Advanced Technology Group.”

13. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008 (The plug-in battery range of 10 miles even with the new lithium-ion batteries shows the limitations of the technology)

“Toyota confirmed that its plug-in Prius is scheduled to go on sale as a 2010 model with an EV-only range of about 10 miles after testing on li-ion models begins with North American fleets in about a year.”

14. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008 (This shows how expensive batteries are)

“The bottom line: As EV range increases, cost increases. The new industry rule of thumb, according to presenters at the Toyota Sustainable Mobility Seminar here, is that batteries will cost about $500 per electric mile delivered.”

15. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008

“Cost aside, battery life is a serious concern, regardless of how manufacturers choose to design and manage their li-ion batteries. The current Prius, which uses nickel-metal-hydride batteries, has a 10-year warranty on the battery pack, but Toyota’s Reinert admitted that such a guarantee would be very difficult to offer on the electrified version. ‘If the warranty is only three years, are customers going to accept that?’ he asked.”

16. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008

“In an earlier interview with PM, Reinert pointed out that in very cold temperatures, mountain regions in the winter, and hot zones, the American southwest in the summer, ‘You can lose an order of magnitude of energy availability in the battery. So if you have a 40-mile range normally, in Boulder, Colo., when it was 10 below zero, you might end up with a 4-mile range, with the heater going and all the other things.’”

17. Chicago Tribune blog post - February 15, 2008

“Toyota plans to have a test fleet of plug-ins by 2010 using lithium-ion batteries that are more expensive than nickel-metal-hydrides and carry more safety and reliability risks.

‘We know it needs to be more than seven miles, but it won’t be 40,’ Jaycie Chitwood, senior planner for advanced technologies, said of Toyota’s target range.”

18. Chicago Tribune blog post - February 15, 2008

In regard to plug-in battery vehicles, Jaycie Chitwood of Toyota said at the 2008 Chicago Auto show that:

“‘What people don’t realize is that those batteries don’t come free,’ she said plus there’s a question of how appealing plug-ins would be. Hybrids such as Prius recharge themselves, but a plug-in needs an outlet.If owners forget to recharge or don’t have access to an outlet, then a plug-in uses only the gas engine.

‘That’s something we have to think about. If they’re not plugging it in, they’re not getting any benefit from the batteries,’ which add weight and take up space, Chitwood said. ‘It’s not necessarily a done deal or the natural evolution of hybrids.’”

19. AutoblogGreen post - February 17, 2008

Jaycie Chitwood, senior planner for advanced technologies, said:

“If you are talking about [a] battery sufficient to give you a range of 40 miles that is probably better to do as a dedicated EV that is a small city commuter car. If you are talking about [a] plug-in hybrid we think that there is a difference in the application [than] one [that] is all electric. Again, maybe more suited for a particular urban environment. If you are talking about a car that needs to both handle short distance electric driving and high speed conditions, then a plug-in with smaller batteries with some level of EV range that is not 40, maybe it is in the 10 to 20 range, that is more viable for that application.”

20. Business Week article - October 9, 2008

“Toyota says it’s not eager to get the car to showrooms too quickly. At a media event in Portland, Ore., on Sept. 23, Toyota executives said that plug-in hybrids, extended-range electric cars like the Volt, and electric cars like the one that Nissan plans to sell in 2010 still have many challenges to overcome.”

21. Business Week article - October 9, 2008

“The batteries and their power-management systems are very expensive, (Bill) Reinert (from Toyota) says. If gasoline prices fall from today’s levels, consumers may not want to pay the premium. ‘Can you get the cost of plug-ins down?’ says Reinert. ‘We don’t know much about the plug-in customer.’

Toyota also thinks more durability testing is necessary. Plug-in hybrid drivers will run the lithium ion batteries down to low energy levels before plugging them in for a recharge. When batteries run down to low levels and charge it back up, they won’t last as long, Reinert says.”

22. Business Week article - October 9, 2008

“Toyota has other queries about plug-in hybrids and electric cars, both of which will be offered by rivals GM, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and Chrysler in the next couple of years. In all cases, it is assumed that owners will plug them in at night when local power utilities have electricity to spare. But Reinert says that plenty of owners will want to plug in during the day. In some areas, that won’t be a problem. But in locales with older electric power systems or maxed out capacity, it could be an issue, he says.”

23. Nikkei article - April 9, 2008

“According to Toyota, if PHEVs that can drive 20 to 40 miles (32 to 64 km) per charge as electric vehicles replaced all current automobiles in the US, it would only reduce energy consumption by 20 to 30%, given the driving patterns in the US. In other words, Toyota indicated its view that the maximum contribution that PHEVs can make in an effort to break dependence on fossil fuels or to halve CO2 emissions is a 20 to 30% reduction in energy.”

24. USA Today article - January 18, 2008

“Short trips are the forte of plug-ins. The energy stored when plugged in is enough for several miles on batteries alone. Toyota says the extra battery pack in the plug-in Prius, mounted in the spare-tire well, should be good for about 7 miles. Stay in that range - a commute, urban errand, quick trip to basketball practice - and you can drive on batteries only, using no gasoline and expelling no pollutants.

Of course, if you take into account emissions from the powerplant generating the electricity to recharge the battery, the picture gets murky. If that power comes from hydro-electric dams or nuclear or natural gas plants, Toyota says emissions are cut. But not for the USA overall, Toyota says, because half our power comes from coal-fired plants.

Averaged across the USA, ‘There’s very little (emissions) benefit’ compared with a current Prius hybrid, says Jaycie Chitwood, senior planner at Toyota’s advanced technologies unit in the USA.“

25. PowerPulse.net article - October 31, 2007

“Toyota Motor Corp. also expressed skepticism regarding the GM plug-in hybrid plan. Among the concerns given by company executives were…the practical feasibility of the concept of a car that can run on battery power for up to 40 miles (according to Toyota, a battery that powerful would take up the entire area of a vehicle’s trunk)”

Here are five more quotes that include comments from people outside of Toyota and Honda criticizing plug-in battery technology:

26. Washington Post article - October 20, 2008

“If large numbers of electric cars are plugged in at the wrong time of day, they could strain utility capacity. ‘Today, our electric grid cannot support massive quantities of plug-in hybrid vehicles very well,’ said Peter Darbee, chief executive of Pacific Gas and Electric. Depending on a utility’s fuel mix, plug-in vehicles could boost particulates, or soot. And only half of Americans have electrical outlets where they park their cars at night, according to a major auto firm executive.”

27. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008

“Current lithium-ion batteries still can’t tolerate large swings in the electric charge cycle. So before the gas in modern hybrids kicks in, and as drivers expect their plug-in cars to operate at higher speeds and longer distances in electric-only mode, battery life will be strained significantly. As a result, the li-ion packs grow larger, which adds expense and makes them hard to package in a small car. For example, at 6-ft 5-in. long and 390 pounds, the battery in the Chevy Volt is downright huge.”

28. Popular Mechanics article - October 2, 2008

“Another commonly held assumption is that customers will charge their plug-in cars during the night, in off-peak electrical-demand hours. However, in studies of early EV users, researchers from the University of California at Davis suggest that Americans want to charge whenever they can-especially during the day. ‘Nearly all vehicles were regularly charged during daytime business hours,’ the report observed. Human nature being what it is, ‘Automotive fuels need to be available anytime, any where, all day long,’ Reinert said, adding that home plug-in stations likely will be limited to high-occupancy apartment buildings at first. ‘What if half of all cars were plug-in cars? Is there enough charging capacity for everyone?’

Larry Burns, vice president of research and development at GM, seemed to agree, in an earlier interview with PM. Utility companies ‘are concerned about everybody in the neighborhood, at the same time, plugging into a fast recharger, and the substation is down immediately. They cannot deliver that much energy that fast.’”

29. Ford website - Speech posted on June 11, 2008

Mark Fields, executive vice president at Ford Motor Company, gave a speech about plug-in cars at the “Plug-in Electric Vehicles 2008: What Role for Washington?” conference in June that was co-sponsored by Google.

Here is an excerpt from the speech where he talks about some of the problems with plug-in battery cars:

“In order to deliver plug-in hybrids to the mass market, challenges that lie outside of the automotive realm must be addressed. Viable solutions to these issues can only come from partnerships with other sectors of the marketplace.

First, there’s the battery. The advancement in lithium-ion technology is what makes plug-in hybrids possible, but the technology is still new for vehicle applications.

Will lithium-ion batteries prove durable - especially when they’re subjected to the vibrations and bumps of 150,000 miles of real-world use? Will they meet customer expectations in the extremes of a Minnesota winter and an Arizona summer? Will the packaging and controls provide the level of quality and safety that customers demand, and expect, from our products?

While they are getting closer, battery manufacturers have a way to go before they can commit to providing batteries that meet OEM safety and durability requirements at a cost and volume necessary to support substantial production - and at a level that would affect national petroleum consumption and carbon dioxide emissions. Will the batteries be able to do all that and be affordable to the average consumer?

It’s also important to note most battery supply is currently being developed in Asia. For those looking to plug-ins to answer our energy security concerns, we must ensure a domestic battery supply. Moving from imported oil to imported batteries clearly would not address this growing concern.

The other major pre-requisite for commercial viability is a robust recharging infrastructure. Recharging is as simple as plugging in the vehicle - not much different from any other appliance. But the infrastructure to provide that plug needs a lot of work.

Among the factors to consider: Access. Nearly everyone has electricity, but how many potential consumers have garages? Access to overnight charging isn’t readily available for most people who live in apartments or condos. Or for that matter, for suburban families with teenagers, or simply too many outdoor ‘toys’ stored in the garage.

One-hundred-plus years of experience with gasoline has ensured a nationwide infrastructure that allows you to drive cross country without worrying about where to get fuel, but a public recharging infrastructure for plug-in hybrids simply does not exist at this time.

Payment. Perhaps the most perplexing issue is: When you’re not at home, how do you pay for the electricity you use to recharge your vehicle, or for that matter, how do you know how much that electricity will cost? Rates vary from region to region, and soon - from hour to hour.

The utilities. The petroleum industry involves only a handful of participants. But in the U.S., there are literally thousands of utilities which would need to unite in recharging protocols and billing to provide the seamless infrastructure needed for a mass market.”

30. AutoblogGreen post - May 3, 2008

“Speaking to the Commonwealth Club of California this week, GM CEO Rick Wagoner told the gathering that in order for electric cars to make a difference in global warming it will require large numbers of them to be deployed at prices that mainstream buyers can afford. While a few hundred Tesla Roadsters or Fisker Karmas may make the owners feel better about themselves, in the U.S. vehicle fleet of 200 million vehicles they won’t make any real measurable difference in the grand scheme of things. To make a significant impact on fuel consumption and emissions, millions of cars and trucks every year need to be more efficient. However, that can only happen if those vehicles are affordable to average car buyers.

When Wagoner was asked why it’s taking as long as it is to bring the Volt to market he explained that it’s a lot harder to create a viable $20,000 electric car than one that costs $100,000.”